گفتگو

Jiro – Conversation Lesson

Kristin: AJ, we finally watched that movie you recommended, Jiro Dreams of Sushi.

AJ: Oh yeah, it’s a great one, yeah.

Kristin: Yeah, yeah, I really enjoyed it. I didn’t really know much about it. I had no expectations so it was…it was a good movie. I liked it.

AJ: Yeah, it’s very interesting, y’know. I like it because it’s another example…I’m always inspired by examples of people who just keep learning or keep growing or keep challenging themselves, y’know, for their entire lives, well into “old age”. And it was just great to see this guy’s, y’know, perhaps the top sushi chef in the world, in Japan certainly, and yet still, I can’t remember if it was 70s or 80s, how old he is, but, y’know, he’s still…he’s still a master. He’s still working every day. It’s great. I like that.

Joe: Did he ever…it’s Tokyo he’s in, right?

AJ: Yeah.

Joe: Did he ever leave Tokyo? Did he ever, like…you hear about some sushi chefs in Tokyo like going to New York, say. I remember we…we watched, we watched an episode of Anthony Bourdain where he was profiling someone who he believed was one of the best sushi chefs in Tokyo and the person lived in Tokyo now, but he had moved to New York and he had this really expensive restaurant and then he moved back to Tokyo. So I was wondering, do you know if Jiro…

AJ: I believe Jiro never left Japan. I think he had been in Tokyo the whole time.

Joe: Ah.

AJ: Yeah.

Kristin: I found it fascinating just someone having a vision, a drive, a focus so clear as his to just every day, he just want…you’ve mentioned, going back to what you said, AJ, you mentioned him being a master, but he didn’t consider…like he still felt like he could perfect what he was doing.

AJ: Yeah, still trying to improve.

Kristin: Still trying to improve.

AJ: Even after doing it his whole life.

Kristin: Yeah.

AJ: Yeah.

Kristin: And, and to…and to be working at that his whole entire life… AJ: Mmm..

Kristin: …that same, that very same thing.

AJ: Yeah, and I think another fascinating thing for me, along the same lines…and this is very Japanese, in my opinion…is this idea of, of something that seems very simple. Because, y’know, if you really think about it, y’know, it’s some rice and it’s fish and it’s not, y’know, it’s not super complex in terms of the number of ingredients. And yet this guy’s, y’know, working and working and working to completely master this, y’know, very simple art. And in many ways I think the art of it is about it being more and more simple, y’know, making it more and more simple. And I think a lot of Japanese arts have that sort of feeling. It’s kind of a Zen/Taoist approach. It’s really unique.

Joe: I also liked the fact that his sons, at least two of them, were following in his footsteps. Although I will say that there’s probably a lot of pressure following in that man’s footsteps, in Jiro’s footsteps. And, if you recall, his older son works in the same restaurant as his father, Jiro. He works in Jiro’s restaurant and I guess he will inherit that restaurant when his father no longer wants to do it or when his father passes away. And I just can’t imagine how difficult that must be.

AJ: Yeah.

Joe: When your father’s the master.

AJ: And especially this guy’s like in his 60s, the son is in his 60s, so he’s…he’s at a time where some people start thinking about retirement already and he’s still waiting to inherit the restaurant from his dad.

And it must be tough, I think, to have a father who’s, y’know, a great master in something and then you’re always in his shadow if you try to do the same thing.

Kristin: Yes, and I think it was talked about in the movie from an ex-employee was interviewed and he was saying he’ll never match up to his dad.

AJ: Yeah.

Kristin: People will come in there, even when his dad is gone, and they won’t think his sushi is as good.

Even if it is, they won’t mentally, they won’t think that. They won’t acknowledge that.

AJ: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I…I don’t know, y’know, it’s…everyone makes their own choices but I…I think that’s a tough path for a kid is to try to follow a parent who is sort of famous and, and has mastered something and then try to do the same thing. I think it’s…I would think it would be hard to be your own person, y’know, and to really carve out your own identity in a way.

Joe: Yeah, I mean, think about John Lennon’s son, Julian. Remember, he…he had a career in the music business as an actual singer. And he was constantly compared to his father. And how could anyone live up to that sort of scrutiny and that sort of model that his father was. I mean his father was one of the most well-known musicians in the world.

AJ: Mmm…yep.

Joe: Y’know? And he had reached a peak that nobody reaches when he was with the Beatles, so… AJ: Yep.

Joe: …yeah, and I can imagine that…that would have been very difficult to follow in his father’s footsteps. Just like with Jiro.

AJ: Yeah, yeah.

Joe: But, y’know, Jiro has his other son who also is making sushi but he doesn’t work at the same restaurant, remember?

AJ: Oh, that’s right.

Joe: He has his own restaurant.

AJ: A younger son.

Joe: And, yeah, his younger son, and his menu is different than that of his father’s.

AJ: Yeah.

Joe: So he’s actually able to carve out his own little niche, y’know?

AJ: Yeah, that’s a smarter way to do it, I think.

Joe: Yeah, but I don’t think that his older son had a choice.

AJ: Mmm.

Joe: I think it was probably put forth to his older son that this is what you’re going to do, y’know?

AJ: Mmm, it’s probably, yeah, the more traditional, y’know…I don’t know, the younger generation probably in Japan doesn’t do that so much but I think in the past and with that older generation that idea of the oldest son taking over or following the career path of the dad was the way to do it.

Kristin: Y’know, on the flip side of being so committed and so driven by one thing, so committed to that your whole entire life, on the flip side…and I found this a little sad in the movie, is he kind of seemed to me missed out on his family life.

AJ: Mmm.

Kristin: I think his sons, the one who’s, who works at his restaurant, was interviewed with him saying yeah, his dad really wasn’t around much when they were growing up and he was really stern when he was around. And, I don’t know, I remember thinking of reading the book about Aung San Suu Kyi, the political, I guess you’d call her activist of Burma, Myanmar. And same thing, she was so committed to what she was doing, y’know, she really didn’t…she kind of missed out on her family life, her two sons and husband.

Joe: Well, you know what? Maybe for some people in that same situation the reason they actually take on the profession of their parent is so they can spend more time with them.

AJ: Yeah, maybe.

Joe: I mean, y’know, I’m a big fan of Frank Zappa, who obviously is no longer alive. But I remember some of his children, his daughter and his son were actually saying the best way to spend time with our father was to go into the studio and be with him. Because he had a studio in the house and he was always in there…

AJ: Ah.

Joe: …making music or working on something. So if you wanted to spend time with Frank Zappa, as one of his children, you had to go into the studio. So maybe the older son of Jiro, y’know, maybe that’s how it started. Or maybe his father made him work in the restaurant anyway, y’know?

AJ: Yeah.

Joe: So…

AJ: Yeah, I know, for me, y’know, there’s a point where it’s not worth it. Y’know, where…that it, it’s good to master things but there, but also I think that it’s healthy, or at least feels healthiest to me to have a balance so that you have a full life and, y’know, kind of all the main areas of humanity, of relationships and health and all of those things and that sometimes the people who are the very best at things they just completely obsess. They obsessively focus on only that one thing and they become great at it which is fantastic and we all admire that. But at the same time they sacrifice a lot. And, y’know, I guess it’s just everyone makes that decision themselves, but…

Joe: I guess that’s really the conundrum then. How do you become a master of something that requires all your time and focus and still have a balance in your life and, y’know, to be a family man or pursue whatever type of interest you have outside of that.

AJ: Yeah, exactly.