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CONVERSATION LESSON

DREAMS CAN CHANGE THE WORLD

Aaron: Daniel D, what’s going down?

Dan: Dreaming of a new dawn.

Aaron: Ooh, a new dawn.

Dan: New day.

Aaron: A new day.

Dan: Are you are a dreamer, AC?

Aaron: I am a dreamer. I like to dream, yeah. Both figuratively and actually.

Dan: What are your dreams?

Aaron: Well, I dream of a …

Dan: Alright, that’s enough. Okay. That’s enough. This isn’t all about you, Aaron.

Aaron: Well, since you askedDan: Let me talk about my dream.

Aaron: You talk about your dreams, man.

Dan: Why don’t you ask me? Why don’t you ask me? Try. Let’s practice.

Aaron: Okay. What do you dream about, Dan?

Dan: I don’t want to talk about that? But John Lennon said, “You may say I’m dreamer, but I’m not the only one.”

Aaron: And that’s true. I’m in there too. I’m a dreamer.

Dan: We actually did a deep English lesson, a short one. A listening fluency lesson years ago in 2013, and we referenced another Beetle you might not remember.

It’s so long ago. We’ve done hundreds of these English lessons.

Aaron: Yes, we have.

Dan: And this was number 60. So, years ago, four years ago, five years agoAaron: Was it Ringo Starr?

Dan: No, it wasn’t Ringo Starr, but Ringo Starr … I actually coincidentally, I was reading that Ringo Starr is in the top 10 list of the richest musicians.

Aaron: Really? I never would have guessed that.

Dan: That for a guy with very little talent.

Aaron: Yeah. Well, I mean …

Dan: But it shows how incredible the royalties must still be to this day, being a Beetle. But he didn’t write any of those songs. So, it’sAaron: He was just along for the ride, they say.

Dan: Yeah. So, I think he would be getting not such a big slice of the pie as a worker. But anyhow, about the Beetles, the reason I thought about it was … This lesson we did in 2013 was about different people, like Einstein who had discovered or had some amazing discoveries while dreaming. And one of them was another Beetle, Paul McCartney, who claims that he woke up with the song Yesterday playing in his head.

Dan: So, I don’t know if that technically counts as it came through a dream, but where else did it come from if he woke up and he was hearing it?

Aaron: Obviously, it was a dream inspired vision of some sort.

Dan: Yeah.

Aaron: Yeah.

Aaron: Yeah. It’s interesting.

Dan: And Mary Shelley, the author of Frankenstein, that story came to her in a dream.

Aaron: Oh, yeah?

Dan: And yeah. There’s tons of these stories out there that … I read about some other guy. I think his name is Kekulé, and he discovered the shape of the molecule, Benzine, which is some sort of ring-like shape and he had a dream about a snake eating its tail. And that dream helped him understand what the molecular shape of Benzine was, apparently.

Aaron: Yeah. Have you had a dream about anything that has inspired you to do anything, like grow your beard?

Dan: Well, I did have a dream. I did have a dream that my daughter was going to be a daughter and not a son.

Aaron: Oh, really. And this was before she was born?

Dan: Yeah. I think it was even … Yeah, it was before … I think it was before my wife was even pregnant.

Aaron: Ah, before she was conceived.

Dan: But I just had a really strong feeling that it was real, for some weird reason.

And so, then when she got pregnant, I was like, “It’s a girl. I know.” Yeah. My wife doesn’t remember the story at all, so she thinks I’m making it up. But not only am I not making it up, I called it. I called the shot. I was like Babe Ruth pointing out to the stands, “That’s where the ball’s going.”

Dan: And you know, that’s really 50/50, so I can’t claim I discovered something amazing. But I felt it was prophetic.

Aaron: Well, hey, if it floats your boat…

Dan: If it floats my boat? Don’t try to minimize this discovery I had, Aaron Campbell.

Aaron: You know, 50/50, man. I don’t know.

Dan: How rude. Not going to tell you any of my discoveries anymore.

Aaron: Okay, alright. Well, you know.

Dan: You’re like the Ringo Starr of this deep English team. Trying to ride on my coattails.

Aaron: That’s right, man. That’s right.

Dan: What about you? You had any dreams that you thought were special?

Aaron: No. No, not at all. Actually, that’s not true. Well, I tend not to, but as soon as I wake up in the morning, I’ll often have an immediate memory of what I just dreamed about, but it disappears very quickly. When I wasDan: Isn’t it weird how it does that? How dreams fly away so quickly?

Aaron: Yeah. But when I’m immersed in a dream, I’m not aware that I’m dreaming. I’m just dreaming. And yeah, I guess like everybody, you see all kinds of crazy things when you dream, and you experience a whole range of different feelings and anxieties or fears or … Yeah. I find dreams fascinating.

Dan: I once read that majority of dreams are, I don’t know what’s the right word for it, but negative. Either anxiety filling or, yeah, something that … Yeah, they’re not fun. The majority of dreams. But I wouldn’t know. I don’t record my dreams and remember very many of them.

Aaron: Have you ever tried to do that?

Dan: No.

Aaron: I once kept a dream journal for a short period of time. I couldn’tDan: Oh, yeah?

Aaron: Yeah, when I was back … Maybe when I was a university student.

Dan: And did just the act of doing that make you start remembering more?

Aaron: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Because when you wake up in that state where you’re just starting to wake up, you’re still kind of in touch with those … Especially if you’re coming immediately out of a dream. Sometimes my dreams actually wake me up. And in that moment, if you leave your mind in that space, you can remember a lot of details. And if you write them down, over time you don’t forget.

You remember.

Aaron: I’d like to try that process again. I think that would be insightful.

Dan: What I’d like to try is that technique for lucid dreaming. There were two techniques that they talked about, this doctor. I think he’s in Australia. Yeah, University of Adelaide. And he’s tried two techniques for inducing or teaching people, to dream lucidly to retain consciousness in their dream. And one I’d heard about many times. And that’s reality testing. And there are different forms of this.

Some people teach that every time that you go through a doorway, you should tap it just so you have a physical action, and then ask yourself, “Am I dreaming?”

And I guess that’s a transition period, walking through a doorway. So, maybe that’s all supposed to be a trigger of you’re moving between things. And maybe when you’re moving between something in your dream, you’ll have that memory, that pattern of asking yourself, “Am I in a dream?” But I think the problem with that is … I’ve tried doing that a little bit. I never sustained it over a long period of time. But I think the problem with that is, you get in the pattern of saying to yourself, “No, I’m not in a dream. Am I dreaming right now? Aaron, are you dreaming right now? No.” You’re not sure. You’re talking to me. It feels like a dream, right…?

Aaron: Well, it is a dream. We live in it. We do live in a dream. We do.

Dan: Anyhow, I think you get into a pattern of, or not taking it seriously, right. Not taking it seriously, but just getting into a row pattern. “Am I dreaming? No, I’m not dreaming.” And so, then you get into that pattern. That’s probably not help you.

Even if that reality check, that question reoccurs in your dream, your pattern probably will be to not take it seriously and it won’t be a trigger to wake you up.

Aaron: Well, okay, what’s the wholeDan: So, the other technique … So, this University of Adelaide, he said he taught people two techniques in conjunction. And one of the techniques was reality testing multiple times during the day over the course of a week. And the other one was, he would wake people up after five hours of sleeping, and then ask them to recite this induction or this intention that, “I will retain consciousness in my dreams.” Yeah, what were the exact words? Let me see here. He’d wake people up after five hours, and then they would have to say aloud, “The next time I am dreaming, I will remember that I am dreaming.” And then they would return to sleep. And I think as they were returning to sleep, they would imagine what it would be like. They would imagine being conscious in their dreams.

Aaron: Okay. I get that. What I don’t completely understand is, why would anybody want to do that anyway? I mean, I know what the argument is. The idea is that if you can learn to sort of be conscious while you’re dreaming, that you can shape the dream, you can take charge of what’s going on in the dream, you can make it into whatever you want. But it seems to me that dreams actually have a purpose, or they must serve some sort of psychic purpose of releasing tensions, or maybe things bubbling up from the unconscious mind, or the subconscious mind, and you sort of process it in some way. Why would you want to interfere with that? What’s the benefit of it? Why make an effort?

Dan: Well, I mean, first you’re making an assumption that the dreams do serve some sort of purpose.

Aaron: Yes, I am assuming that.

Dan: A lot of people say that it could just be a by-product, an unintentional byproduct of sleep, which we do need to recuperate our cells. But I’ve heard other people argue that that’s probably not the case, because dreaming, being in REM, takes up more calories than other forms of sleep. So, probably evolution would steer us away from wasting energy. So, yeah, it probably is serving some purpose.

But I guess the argument for lucid dreaming is that, yeah, we’re processing things in our dreams all the time, and why not be able to … I don’t think anyone can 100% control their dreams. There’s always going to be stuff from the unconscious coming up, but why not direct things so that you have the ability to get creative about problems and face your fears.

Aaron: Yeah, I suppose so. I guess the only reason why I’ve never been attracted to actually trying lucid dreaming is because it sounds like work.

Dan: Yeah.

Aaron: When I close my eyes at night I want to rest. I don’t want to work. I don’t want to have to do something. I’ve had enough work during the daytime. Now I’ve got to do it again at night.

Dan: I saw there’s this company that sells these goggles that you wear that, I think it detects eye movement, even with your eyelids clothes, and then it will flash a light against your eyelids and that’s supposed to be the trigger to wake you up.

Aaron: To wake you up. Now, one thing I do practice is something called Yoga Nidra, which I found very useful in my life.

Dan: Uh-huh. (affirmative).

Aaron: Yeah. And of course ‘nidra’ is sleep, it’s the Sanskrit word for sleep. Yogic sleep. And I learned it when I was in India 20 years ago. And yeah, I found it really, really helpful. It’s something that I practice in the daytime for 10 to 15 minutes at a time, and I just lie down on my back. There’s kind of a systematic way of relaxing and bringing your awareness to every single part of your body, inside and out, including your breathing, and the mind, and all the sensations. And it puts you in a really deep, relaxed state, and then the thoughts start coming and you don’t get involved in them. And a lot of times the way it’s practiced is, you combine it with some kind of creative visualization, which I don’t do much of. I just keep myself in that state for 10 or 15 minutes, and when I get out of it I feel like I’ve had a long nap, a long rest. And I feel great. I feel really good.

Dan: Do you ever fall asleep?

Aaron: Sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes.

Dan: That means you failed.

Aaron: Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah. Failed at my attempt to stay in that state, yes, that’s right.

Dan: At life.

Aaron: At life? Well, yes. I have failed in many ways at life. That’s true. Thanks to your tutelage, Dan.

Dan: So, what’s the purpose of it? To just relax?

Aaron: For me, it’s a way of rejuvenating my mind and body. It’s like getting a power nap on steroids. It’s a really quick and easy way for me to rejuvenate my energy.

Dan: Uh-huh (affirmative).

Aaron: Yeah. Anyway, that’sDan: You ever fall asleep when you’re driving?

Aaron: No.

Dan: You never been driving when you’re on a long road trip and you’re driving for hours and hours, and then you just feel a jerk in your head?

Aaron: Yeah. Well, yeah, that’s when I pull over and I get coffee.

Dan: Yeah, but I think that jerk is a micro-sleep.

Aaron: Oh.

Dan: Like a split second, and that jerk is you waking up. Your body’s like, “No! Not now.”

Aaron: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That’s when I stop, yeah.

Dan: I read something, or I was listening to an interview with a sleep researcher, and he was saying, just three days of less than six hours of sleep makes your reaction time equal to someone who is legally drunk.

Aaron: Yes, I’ve heard that too.

Dan: That’s not such a small amount of sleep. He was talking about getting five hours sleep, three days in a row.

Aaron: No, it definitely affects you. Yeah. Yeah, sleep is so important, and a lot of people in the modern age do not get the kind of sleep they really need, and I think that affects your memory, it affects your ability to focus. Obviously it can affect your immune system. It’s very important.

Dan: Yeah. This sleep researcher, he was talking about how crazy it is that doctors, when they’re in the residency period, how they’re given these crazy schedules where they’ve got to work 18 hour shifts, and he was talking about the history, why do they do that? It’s most important that a doctor who’s got your life in their hands, working in emergency rooms, they should be at tiptop focus and attention, and why force them to have this small amount of sleep and work, essentially, drunk? And he was talking about the guy who created the first residency. I don’t know how long ago this was. I don’t know if this was 70 years ago, or 100 years ago, but he apparently was doing research with cocaine. This was back when cocaine was used as an anesthetic. And so, he became a cocaine addict, and it was his idea to work these crazy hours because he was all coked up.

And then he realized he had a problem and he started getting some treatment, and they started giving him morphine, which is essentially heroin. So, this guy was stringing back and forth between cocaine and morphine. And still, to this day, we apparently, hospitals around the US follow his system of working doctors to death based on his energy that he had from coke.

Aaron: Hey, that sounds like a nice listening fluency story. We should write that one. Six years? Did you know that?

Dan: Six years, what?

Aaron: Six years, man.

Dan: Since you slept? You haven’t had a wink of sleep in six years. Good on you.

Aaron: That’s the average amount of time that we spend dreaming in our lifetime.

Dan: Six years?

Aaron: Yeah, that we spend in dreams. That’s a long time.

Dan: So, we spend a third of our life sleeping, of course not dreaming.

Aaron: No.

Dan: And so, if the average person lives 70 years, that’s 21 years, and so only six of those 21 years is dreaming, is what you’re saying?

Aaron: Something like that, yeah.

Dan: So, that would mean, maybe about 20% of our time we’re dreaming.

Aaron: Yeah. Well, about 90 minutes. I think that comes out in six years over a lifetime. 90 minutes, average per night, assuming that you get a 7, 8 hour sleep.

Yeah. That adds up. I guess maybe it is worth exploring the use of that time better.

Dan: Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron: Maybe lucid dreaming’s the way, man.

Dan: Yeah.

Aaron: I mean, there’s no telling what we might find there.

Dan: Yeah. So, this guy in the story, he used it to process problems and to release emotional baggage and … Yeah, it’s interesting how some people naturally lucid dream all the time. Like this guy, he didn’t even know. He knew there was something different about it, but he didn’t know what it was or what it was called.

And you know our mutual friend, Rob, he’s like that.

Aaron: Oh? Is he, really?

Dan: He told me that during periods of his life he would lucid dream two or three times a week.

Aaron: Wow.

Dan: But I think he had a little bit different definition of it. He was maybe aware that he was dreaming, but not controlling his dream.

Aaron: I see. Yeah. Not transforming things that were …

Dan: Or no, maybe he was transforming them but not aware what he was doing.

It wasn’t a conscious … Yeah. I don’t know. I’ll have to ask him.

Aaron: We’ll have to ask him, yeah.

Dan: Yeah.

Aaron: Alright, man. It’s pretty late where you are, right?

Dan: Yeah. Yeah. It’s 1:30. I wish I could go to sleep but got some more lessons to make.

Aaron: That’s right, man. The lessons never stop.

Dan: It’s all for the people, right?

Aaron: It’s all for the good of the people.

Dan: That’s my dream. That’s our dream.

Aaron: That’s our dream, man. Alright. Well, I guess we’ll be talking to you soon.

Dan: Until next time. See ya.

Aaron: See ya.